Chasing Giant Stripers: Big Baits and Hard Lessons on the Sacramento River

Hot podcasting from Chico, California.

This is the Barb live fishing podcast where we discuss North Health Fishing, guiding, fisheries science and management,

conservation and more.

No better, fish s. Here's your host. Obi Brown. Alright. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the so brown with the Barb podcast.

In my guest today is Carson, and I'm gonna butcher your name, Max S.

No. Actually, you nailed it. Did I almost... Like, I was thinking, I'm like, I'm not even gonna a try. I'm just gonna be, like Carson pronounce your last name. It looks intimidating, but yeah. Pretty much everybody gets it right first try. So good job. Dude. Okay. The confidence going in.

Yeah. So I've wanted to have you on. We've known each other for a while. And I was trying to think back to, like, how you and I knew each other, and I

I vaguely remember, like, it was, like, head nods at the boat ramp for a while. Like, boat buddies. Yeah. Totally like... And even and then I was like, well then, like, at some period, like,

We have a mutual friend and crazy, Paul as or Paul as the guests may know, but like, I think we knew each other before we knew that we both knew Paul.

So we have another

mutual friend his name is Josh. And he's really

yes. How fly Angle. And Okay. Was trying to connect the dots between you and I because he knew I was really into stripe fishing. Yeah. You gotta meet my buddy Hogan. He's out there all the time.

Yeah. That was happening... That was our first

intersection. And Josh and I go to pyramid and fly ish, Yeah you know, a couple times a year usually and that's kinda how it all

Congratulations. Because I was, like, man, I just I've known Carson forever. Like, I don't know the origin of knowing him, but, like, I've known Carson for a long time.

So...

Yeah. And how... And I mean, it boat ram buddies is probably it. I mean, most of our interactions are at, you know, thirty five miles an hours. We're going up or down the river right or Like... It's a it's the nod or

you know, we're both fishing the same drift and where you totaling? And how, you know, are you going up River Down River how's it been? All Yep. And then, like, a little post phishing recap on

Instagram messages. Yeah. Yep. So

I I... How how long have you been out there? Fish in the river?

Twenty twenty six. So

probably,

I think I'm going on, like, fourteen years. Okay. And I I think of you as just like a fisherman because I know you fly fish.

Yes. And how how in this is as the listeners are kinda of gonna follow along through the evolution of this? Did,

did you start fly fishing and then get into gear fishing

or did you start? I mean, are we talking about the rear specifically? No. Just in general, like, your an journey.

So

like everybody, I started conventional fishing as a Okay. You know? Yeah

And at some point

that wasn't enough. I think I was probably thirteen or fourteen years old, and I was just... I I don't know where I got a fly rod. Probably big five or something. Mh. And I was just practicing my double haul in the backyard for

I I... Who knows how long before that finally clicked.

Trying to pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. You know, with no real, you know, this is, like, the Internet was not the resource it is today. So I was just back there doing it. Totally.

And, you know, I don't really know what was the catalyst to me starting to fly fish, but at some point, I really wanted to do that, so I did that for a bit.

And

I mean, I kind of have just always done both. You know, The app... Whatever is required to be where I'm at and be successful. Yeah.

Well, and that's that's kinda like, you know, as we're both Chico locals, like, that's kind of the Nor cal

model.

Right? Like, I mean, I I I noticed that when I moved

out of the mountains here. It was like,

the same dude that was throwing dry flies on, you know, Hat Creek or up on the Yu was dragging a sa wrap flat fish on the sack. Right. I don't know it mean like, eight foot, seven ounce you know,

stripe or rod to go

prospect around

the cloud river. You totally making... But guys do everything and, like, that was a new thing to me when I came to the valley, you know, and, like, really settled in, but that... That's kind of a thing. So... Yeah. It I think it is

wise to be

an

ambiguous.

You go. Dude that's a great. That's great an ambiguous.

Yeah. Like, like, to pigeon hole yourself to one thing is going to just exclude a lot of excellent opportunities around here. And so I've just kind of always done both.

As I started targeting stripe more seriously, I definitely favor conventional fishing. There's always a fly rod in my boat. Yeah. But I've had so many failures,

even with conventional, so many just like, yeah. Catastrophic

things go wrong that

I've never really wanted to take fly fishing for big stripe as seriously as... I mean I want to. I think about it, but I'm also like, oh, well,

if I wi or if I, you know, if I,

tang a line at my feed and I was stepping on my line and something broke, I would never forgive myself, and so I haven't really

done that.

But I always think about it. You, I was like, one day I'm gonna really get after this. Yeah. And I I I always tell people, like, if I had to feed myself off striped bass. I would not be fly fishing for because Right. I would die

a very early death.

The opportunity for failure is everywhere, especially with those big ones, and so I'd I tend to try to mitigate that wherever I can. And that's that's a great... I I couldn't have said it better than that. Is the opportunity for failure is

way greater. Yeah. Absolutely.

So

I... To give the listeners some context, like,

I don't know anyone that catches

more big stripe than you do. And, you know, part of the the

the respect that I have for you is you are, I always think of you is the you are the Silent assassin on the river. Like, your Instagram account is, like, lockdown private, like, you... No. I mean, it's public, but there's a lot that goes on,

whatever you would say. I don't public aside a lot stuff going on. Yeah. There. You know, time of... Was in private for a while though? It was. Yeah. Okay. Well I had, like, a... I don't want my my family stuff being viewed by random people totally. But totally at some point, I just kind of made this switch I was, like, Okay. Getting some some

brief stuff from interested parties if Yeah. If I do make something out of this. So I do put stuff up there occasionally, but I do maintain pretty a pretty low key profile. Yeah. You you maintain of the successful river stripe wrangler probably the lowest

profile there is. You you are the definition of the Indie rock under the radar guy.

But it's... Well, you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you're telling everybody what you're doing and where you're going and what, you know, look at me is not always in your best in? No. And that's a

that's a

that's a young bowl old bull type of mentality, but, you've seem to always have had it. So

so well, I, every time I do it Every time I do put something up.

There's this... I mean, there's, like, that dopamine surge of like some positive feed.

This is cool. People are into this. But in, the next day, I've got four boats

that I'm racing to this spot, you know, and I'm like It... Why did I do that? You're like So there's always that kind of internal conflict of whether to do it or not so. Well, I think locally you are well known enough that if Carson is catching big fish, it's big fish time. So, like, if you throw it up there, Like, yeah, you're you're gonna have some company. So... Well, hopefully, usually my strategies is, I'm a season or so behind. Like Oh, that was... That's all stuff online. It's it's usually for last season.

That's...

I always...

You know, I always try to, like, you know, you gotta balance drum up business and getting people to go fish with you as a guide, but at the same time, like,

I I always am like, don't have that burden. Yeah. But I'm always like, dude. I don't post big fish pictures

during season. You know, it's just right. Not good, You. So... No. So you get you. I'm guilty sometimes, but I but I try to avoid it. Usually, if it's, like the video require... You know, I, I would love to make a cool video. I got this all on a Gopro, and then I start editing it, and then I'm like, man, this is a headache, and I've got little kids pulling me this way in that and, you know, work in life, and I'll usually just lose interest and that's how it kinda of fizz out most often. Yeah.

So

I know you as, you know, the gear guy out on the river that really puts in more time and catches bigger fish than anyone

I know and obviously myself and all

encompassed added up.

I I.

Thank you. How did you... How did, you know, because I think of, like, the gear

arrival on the river

as, like, the drought years of, like, two thousand fourteen ish, like, Salmon drop off like,

is that when you kinda found your way out there? Or was it... Did it pre date that? Tie... No timing is good like that. Like that is kind of around when, you know, I was really cut teeth out there. Yeah.

I think my first introduction to the river was with Sean Anderson. I have a friend a friend's wife had set up a guided trip. She's like, hey, You know, one are my lifelong friends? Yeah. Who's also a very serious fly angle.

You know, She's like, it's his birthday. I I'm... I set him up with a

fly fishing trip out on the Sack with Sean Anderson and yeah. We've got room for one. Would you like to join them I'm like?

Absolutely. Yeah. And that was... I think that was twenty

thirteen. Okay. Twenty twelve. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I wasn't... You know, he he set me up with, like, a spinning rod from Walmart and a savage gear multi joint, like, just junk. But Des sean's credit, Sean was one of the first dudes to go from, like,

bass angle to, like River Wrangler, like, that was top of the line gear at the time. Oh, yeah. No. He was doing that based on his faith in my ability. You know Well,

I don't really know this guy. You don't seem like you know what you're doing, but, like, here you go. Yeah. Can't mess this up. And I'm like, alright. Yeah. Like, cool. And, like, first cast, it's me... It's still dark out.

We're fishing,

nickel ranch. Yep. Just pitch black. I'm totally out of my element, and I make a cast and I just hear this, like,

t out in the water as my line goes tightened. And I'm on right away. Yeah. I was like oh my god. This is really cool. Yeah. And we wound up kinda beating him up for the rest of the day I got I got another big fish

And so

that was it. You know I was like, I went home from them. And I was like oh my god. That just, like, yeah changed my... Drive flies in five weights are not in my future. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. I am doing this, and I'm doing it hard.

That's And so that... Yeah. That's kinda how it began and that is around that same time.

And then, you know, I got a kayak. I started jerk in the river that way. That was probably fourteen.

And then I got a drift boat, and I started doing it that way. And I was probably fourteen to fifteen, and then I got a jet boat in, like, twenty sixteen.

And that's right around those big drought years low water,

big fish, and they're, you know, they're really locked into these spots, and you can

access them super easily. Well, and it's interesting because I think a lot of those guys that were getting into it at that time. I know Sean and Sean's a really good friend. I... We we we all know each other. Like, Yeah. Sean was coming from the conventional bass world. You know what I mean? Like, he was

in a lot of those dudes that were coming out there were

delta guys or conventional ba guys

kinda ramping up or gearing up existing tactics where you came to it from

like, nothing. Right? Like, you were just, like, wow. This Got... You know, I got a glimpse, and I learned a lot on Youtube and that's spent a lot of time just out there trying stuff. Just so much time out there trying stuff. Yeah.

I was a little bit behind

all the dudes throw big glide. Right? Big bates was... Like, the Huddle

revolution from Southern California sector right. This this had happened, and I was kind of on the tail end of that. So I knew. Right? I was like, okay. So I'm getting little savage gear like, eight inch glide.

Yeah. And getting feedback from the fish,

and and it just kinda progressed from there. Yeah.

And, you know, part of the reason, you know, it's I probably should've have preface this, like, of

you are a bait designer now at this point, and that's kind of the the the heart of the my fascination outside of just our friendship. But

when did that come into the equation? Because I I...

It makes sense now, Like, if you if you, you know, I

if your fly fishermen inevitably, you you at least try to learn how to tie flies. You know? It becomes it becomes cost prohibited as you don't care. Yeah. There's there's... And there's an extension of, like,

those those... I don't wanna say fringe, but the my the minority of the people that are, like, I really wanna learn everything about this. You know? And really to to learn everything about fly fishing. You gotta at least like

try to tie flies and decide it's not for you or tie flies.

But that doesn't seem to be like a super common extension

in, like, the gear fishing world, at least

I I wanna say I have more of my toes than just dipping in my toes in it. But I mean, a lot of the bass guys, I know. They're not mold baits and doing all that. I mean, I'm sure there are

but

how did you get into

basically building baits.

So like you said, you... There comes a point. Right? Where you're like, I am doing... This is all encompassing. Everything I want right now. Everything that I... That, like, all information coming in needs to be fishing related. Everything I do needs to be.

Yeah. And, you know, being out on the water is only so much of your time. Right? There's there's still another twelve hours in the day. Totally. And and so you're like, okay. So I'm nerd out on Youtube and I'm, like, you know, I've... I'm listening to the barb podcast and and I stumbled on this bait maker's channel on Youtube. And was like, hell, yeah. I think I could do that.

And so I just started nerd out on rid bates, and that was literally was around like, carving bates.

Yeah. Carving out of wood. Oh, man.

And that was like twenty

eighteen.

And so timing was good because I had lost my home in paradise, and I was kind of like,

I was shack up with my mother lawn who had a shed behind her house.

And I just needed to spend a lot of time kind of poke me for everybody. Yeah. I would buried. I would just, you know, walk myself into this shed.

And listen to fishing podcasts and car lures, and and there's, you know, whole evolution with that?

Do you have some of the first ones that you did? Absolutely. Yeah. That's good.

Yeah. I've got, like, a

I mean, they're just in a cardboard box right now unfortunately because I'm I'm remodeling my shop. But

yeah. I have the whole progression. It's pretty fun to look at sometimes it's...

And so of trial and error. There's a lot of failures.

Yeah. And so was it when you're when you're... When you got into this, it's carving bates. It's it's not that anymore as you've progressed. Like, is it...

And it's mainly

the glide bates and for the listeners, what what it what

what is a glide or what is it that you're making? Okay.

So

a glide bait is, like, I mean, depending on where you live, they're different things. But Yeah. You know, here, a glide is

a hard plastic

single joint

fishing lure. It just it's like a fish and it has one joint one hinge somewhere in the middle depending on what you're going for,

that will,

cause it to do kind of an s action in the water and it just swims kinda of, you know, for the glide back. For the flying alerts, it's the the Lure you sweet... See swim that you're like, oh, shit. I could never. There's... I got nothing.

Well, I mean, there are some comparable flies. Right. There are now with blaine additions and some as guys. Like like, the game changers and all of those are are

the most,

like, the most comparable thing in the fly world I would think. Yeah.

But...

Yeah. So that's what they are. They're just a big fish. They're they're typically oversized, although they come in all,

every size really. But Yeah. The ones I favor are massive.

Yeah And that's too... That's because of what we talked about earlier because those

tend to produce bigger strikes and bigger fish? Yeah.

So when you started w, when did you move into, like, because you now mold them? Correct? Right. So, yes. So that...

You know, it's just the evolution of anything that I do and most people, I guess that

start doing something if you wanna do it well or you wanna get better at. You're like, what else can I do? How else can I do this? So

eventually,

I started, like, oh, I really like this lure. And you're going out and you're fish in it on the river.

Shit happens. You lose dates. Y. Yeah... Yeah. Yeah. Big fish big fish took so many of my lure, so many, like, you know, hand carved wooden

this took me a week to make things. And then all of a sudden, it's just gone and it's like, oh, my god. That's, like, I'm heartbreaking breaking. Yeah. That makes your

N that you break off in the rocks look like small potatoes, man.

Yeah. So painful. I've had moments like, just sitting on the full or of my boat. Like, what am I doing with my life is like the

like like, just big fish loss, big fish loss. And... But all of this is again, like, a part of the

part of the process. Yeah. For sure. You know, an opportunity for growth.

And so eventually, kinda started, oh, well, I really like this one or I take it out and go fishing, and I'd get feedback.

I'm, like, I'm gonna take this home and I'm gonna make a mold of. So that just in case anything happens, I can reproduce it.

And Gotcha.

So then I've got molds and then, like, if I lose a bait, I can go back and make another one.

Gotcha

So eventually settled on a really, really good design or very... Of design Have been super successful with, and I can mass produce then. You know, I have like four molds of it, and I can just crank them out.

Gotcha.

And so how...

When you... Do you still, like, if I was gonna say, hey,

design a new bait, are you starting with wood and carving it? I would. Yes. I've got like a sophisticated bait builder. There's...

There are people that can jump on the computer and design and have their Cnc

or their three d printer come up with something. I don't I don't have that. I'm, you know, I'm an old man. I'm not good on the computer.

But, I mean, that that... So you take this wood lure out. You think you got a good shape. Are you, like, pulling out the Swiss Army knife and Wood on it when you're out there?

No. No. Okay. The the

the farthest this I'll go is I have some super glue. Gotcha, You know, if there was some sort of a failure or something. But not gotcha. If it's...

I'm not like, oh, this, you know, an idea doesn't jump into my head and I just start carving on the boat.

Okay.

Oh, I just think I I just think a tune and a bait or something like that. I didn't know how... Oh, sure. Yes. Yeah. That... Absolutely.

Okay. So the big thing you can tune with the glide is the joint. The the

The joint is like a hinge. Yeah. And you can

you can make the the gap between the front portion and the rear portion of the bait larger, You can change the angle of it. You can do some things that they will have a

significant and direct impact on the behavior of the bait. Gotcha. And so that is something you can do real time just with the pair pliers. Mh.

I now I have a swimming pool. So I'm usually just doing it in my backyard till I like them. Gotcha. And then take them mountain and fish. Gotcha.

And so as this evolves, you mold these debates, you get them, like,

how does that turn into, like,

Carson, you know, you for the listeners, you you you design bates for bait sanity. You have your own bait?

Like, how does... How do you go from there to there?

So

so that isn't exactly accurate. What Okay.

What

I do with Bait Sanity.

So Bates Sanity has a lure, A big, you know, a big glide. Yeah. That was actually the fur... My first big glide I used. And I and I was super successful. Yeah. And caught ton of big fish so, you know, just passively

develop their relationship with bait sanity. Yeah.

Just, hey, check out this fish and like, oh, well, what do you think of this Lure? In why don't you try that? And and so that just kind of organically

happened. And so bluer that I have with them

is one that they already make. It's a little I've already made. And Gotcha just was, like, what color do you think would be

good for your of this lure that I already make. And so then we had it back and forth of, like,

how to, like, create the pike memo. Yet yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. A pike min look like. I was like, this seems kinda untapped and I know that

that is something that would work here. And so then we just kind of sent pictures of fish back and forth until they came up with a good color way. And That's slap my name on it. And so,

yeah. That's my bait sanity Lure. That's awesome. But it... But it's an already existing designed bait. It just,

you know, he just kind of wanted to pay homage. So to speak and, like, put your color away on this and we'll call it your bait. That's so cool. Yeah and I mean, it it

as you design your own baits, are you... Are these...

I mean, do you do you sell them? Or do you keep these things pretty tight to your vest? Because... I... Well, both of those.

Well it's funny. I I I asked because I look back on, like,

I always ask myself, like, I have a few fly patterns that, you know, I I gave up and, you know, have... I I won't say made tons of money, but for various times in my life were significant to my income,

but I also sit here at, you know, forty seven and go.

How good of a t guide would I be if I never gave up any of these flies

like right. You know? So I I

I'm curious.

I guess.

So I do make them and I do keep them pretty close to, you know, to the chest. I don't...

I'm not

advertising so much as sometimes all t's that I'm making a batch.

And

and interested parties usually show up.

See the other kinds.

And

through some sort of vetting, I don't know if I love whatever whatever it is that determines if I like you or I where you lit then I'll sell I'll sell people bates. But... Yeah.

It's very very small I'll probably make a dozen a year, You know? Gotcha.

It's not it's not something that I'm doing to produce revenue. It's something that I do because I love making bates. Yeah. And eventually, I have a surplus

and then I just kinda dump. Yeah. You know, look forward to seeing people send me back fish pictures. Totally, I I I always...

One of the coolest things experiences I've ever had is a fly tire and I I I'm curious to know if you've had this is, like,

you know, we design whatever it is a flyer or ab bait for, like, a very specific situation in a very specific fisheries that we fish or guide. Right. And then some dude from some random place in, I mean, heck, it could be the world.

Buys your fly. I mean, it may be a state you've never even been to on a body of water. You don't even know exists and they're like, right. This is the best fly

on x y z river and you're like, dude. I've never even been to an airport in that state. Has that ever happened to you? Yeah.

I... And that that is the best feeling. Right? How it's super cool.

So so there's a there's like, a little... I shouldn't say a niche there. There is a group of individuals in, like, the

on the Tennessee River fisheries. Okay. Yep. At that, you know,

reached out to me, and, you know, hey, we have kind of a comparable fisheries. We do... We target our big big stripe the same way as you

you know, Yeah. You show me yours. I'll show you mine totally thing. And yeah got some bait out to those guys, and and they've

actually, I mean, that's another story, but

they've

had all kinds of awesome things happened with my date over It's so cool other side of the continent. And Yeah. And it's super cool.

And I actually had the pleasure of going over there in fishing, Although we did with, I gotta say, we totally zwift, but they invited me out there.

And I had a monster stripe or just kinda nose my bait all the way into the side of the boat could get it to bite. Yeah.

But

but, yeah, It's the best just knowing that it's out there in the world and these people

think highly enough to pay a lot of money because I... That's the other thing too. Like, most fly guys are, like, oh, gosh, a ten dollar fly, a fifteen dollar fly. Like,

a glide bait. I mean, I see him for a couple hundred bucks. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm am

past the two hundred points. Yeah. Or two hundred dollar. Yeah. And, you know, and,

you know, for... I think for the type of people that are as into it... To be into it enough to find me and totally it. And be like, hey, I heard or I saw you make this this bait.

They're going to pay that and, you know, usually pretty happily because they know the deal. Like, that's just how it is. These are made lures, like, they're... Every single one is unique. And they work. Right? I've hoped fish with these baits. So... Yeah. Why wouldn't you? Yeah. I'm totally. Yeah. You gotta you gotta get pretty deep down the rabbit hole to find me. And there's there's a lot of

more sophisticated

and people that actually do it for a living

that still charge numbers like that and are super successful doing that. Yeah. Their base work.

So as we dive in, kinda one of the the things I really wanted to get into with you was the design. And as we were talking before I hit record, like,

I don't know,

you know, when you look at predator fly fishing, it... That's kind of the category that Stripe fall into, you know, but that's Musk, pike, bass in general any of this like,

Most fly anglers don't

put a ton of thought

into

how that fly that they're trying to get that fish to eat swims,

you know?

And

Most flying, I know or stripe guides or anything. They'll tell you like, hey, like, you know, there's days where dudes fish in the same line, same rod same play and one guy's smack and them and the other guys not getting right. And I like holding his mouth just right. You know And now. Yeah. Like, you know, it and that comes down to the fact that one dude is moving the fly in a different way than other. And... Yes. You know, I think if you go down the rabbit hole, they're all there are guys like blaine and some of the Midwest Musk guys and stuff like that that are tuned into, like, what I refer to as swim patterns, but, like,

basically how the bait moves

is not a a topic

in the fly world like it is in the gear world. Yeah. And it's not an accident that those same people that that same person

that,

you know, you're fishing the exact same setup and one person is

and consistently more successful that's not an accident. Exactly. There's a reason that's putting that thought into it. Yeah. We're just, you know, has done it so much that it isn't even a thought. You know, that they are just it is an extension of their arm and they know what that bait doing, and they know what they want it to be doing. Yeah. And and and it all clicks.

So I think a lot of people in the fly world have the assumption that, you know, the bait

is the action and the the angle is just reeling versus the fly

Angle

is

implying action to an action less fly. And

I I think with that, like, starting point, there's it's not true, but as you look at, like, designing the action of a bait,

the two things that I always think of

that

I don't think flying pay attention to enough, especially when it comes to Stripe is

Most of the fish you're catching on glide are that glide bait, I think a lot of people don't realize only runs like a footer two feet below the surface. Correct? Correct. Yes. And, you know, stockton. Yeah. And we have... You know, the the common

flying is fishing a type seven lead core with a heavily weighted cloud

down

ten feet below that county

faces Exactly.

So just based on those two differences,

why

why do you run that glide at that depth and the way you do?

Just the nature of the glide,

unless,

especially in current. Right? You you need to be maintaining

a specific retrieve for the bait to perform. Okay. And and in current, it's kind of

your hand is being forced. You Yes. You've only got this window of time where you're presenting your bait to the fish. And otherwise, it's it's Down River and it's over.

So so as you're retrieving, they tend to kinda find their

their water column that they wanna be in and their their big date. They're pushing a lot of water, and so they they rise up, you know, as you're reeling a bait. Yeah. As as you're doing a retrieve,

the bait come up, You know, and they find their sweet spot depending on the weight of a glide bait, it's going to be higher or lower, but only slightly.

And Yeah. And when you say higher or lower, man, you're not talking ten feet to one feet. I mean, you're talking, like, one foot

three feet to six inches. You know Yeah. It's still... It's always

going to be on the top of the water column. I mean, this specific beta. Right? Yeah put a lip on one or something and cause it to dig down and you could stuff like that.

Really that, you know, the...

It's it's pretty limitless, but that is a proven effective way of doing it. So that's, you know, that's what I'm talking about here. Yeah So you have that window. Yeah. And you have that that retrieve window and the bates kind of forced to come up a bit.

And that back and forth action that these glide do tends to get their attention and we'll draw them up. Gotcha.

And and that's it lights out. Boom. Yeah. So you're... It's just that easy. So

you still are of the mindset when you're designing that glide bait

to run at that shallower depth. You're not necessarily putting that bait in front of your fish. You're pulling your fish to that bait through the water column. To a certain extent Right? Yeah.

Every hole is different. Every spot the fish are

con aggregating and on any given stretch of river is different, and you can you can do things to adjust your

presentation for all of that stuff. That's very nuanced.

That's,

you know, we get into the weeds pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think the thing that I think of the thing that a lot of people don't realize especially from the fly world and like, I always have to keep myself and check on this too is that

most of these monster fish are eating your glide in like a foot of water. If not...

They come up and say hello, and it's absolutely awesome. Yeah. So, like, it it... This idea that, like, we have to fish

heavy flies and heavy lines to catch stripe is

we're missing something. You know what I mean? Like Well

so

the... I mean, this is this transcend sends. Right? Yeah. The the

aggression of the fish on any given day is it depends. Right? You don't, you know, oh, they're really chewing today versus they're being kinda... They're kinda locked down. Yeah.

And so and

a big one I pay attention to is water temperature when they're when they're colder when it starts to get really deep into winter and the water's in the forties.

Yeah. I don't really fish a glide anymore unless it's, you know, super low light hours and ultra slow and it's an area where I can get away with having a long

presentation time. Yeah.

In alt... And while still fishing my bait really slow then I switch to different lures that are gonna get down lower and get more in their faces.

Gotcha. And I will find more success that way. So there is, like a a window of time where they're aggressive. Yeah. They're willing to come up and grab these dates

or the conditions of the river and the area you're fishing

lends itself to you being able to get away with a slower

presentation.

So it is ci substantial. Now do you think of it's not always the best choice. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

But what's what what's funny about it is it it... The the the choice to run a fly on saying intermediate line and the first foot or three feet of water is. Mh.

Like, most flying last choice are not even a choice. You know I mean? Well, I mean, everything is feedback. Right? If you're... Totally. If you're going to do something that you don't think is going to... And confidence. Right? Like, yeah, this might work, but

I've... I've done this other thing, and it definitely work

and that was getting lower or, like, Yeah, whatever that may be.

That's going to dictate how you fish and what you choose to throw. And yeah

so that's... I mean, and and and, like, a lot of other people that are

out here in the same water that I do, and, you know, we get to talking about

presentation or this, and that have a totally different

mindset or, like, you know, their feedback has been different over the years and so I think fisher behaving completely differently than I do. Yeah. And that's not wrong. You know, that's totally. It's valid for feedback. Yeah. Yeah.

So So... Yeah. I don't...

I I think the other thing I'm... I think about too is So to my my,

I guess my feedback or my understanding is to

to pull stripe

to something whether it's a flyer ab bait, their first encounter with that is gonna be the pressure waves or the the the disturbance that that bait throws off.

Is that kind of the operation that... Or the

the kind of the way you operate with the glide bait is that movement of that bait throws off a certain disturbance or pressure wave that they either like or they don't. Is that...

It... That is it's so hard to say. Yeah. And I mean, that's something I think about. Yeah.

But,

you know, I can't see what they're doing. Yeah. And I can't see if if there's...

You know, if that

school of fish I'm looking at is just shut down or if it's the way my bait performing or behaving in the water. Yeah.

Or this or that or the other thing.

So so it's impossible to know. And so I I don't get too caught up on that kind of stuff. Okay. But what I try and do is, like, I'll look for an area

wear a glide bait seems like the bait that would make the most sense to use versus an a rig or something that's going down deep. And it's like, okay. Here's here's some smooth water, like some frog water Yeah. With a lot of structure, and I can run a bait over this structure. Right? If I'm thrown an a rig,

I'm gonna lose my gear. Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm playing with fire, but I know these fish will be all over the water column them in this area

because there's a big chunk of structure, and they're not just laying on the bottom there. All over tree. Yeah. And so if I run it over the tree,

chances are pretty good something's gonna come up and say, hello. Yeah.

But if it's twenty feet deep,

and there... And there's no structure and they're just glued to the bottom,

then I'm not throwing a glide bait.

I will make that choice to, like, go deeper and go. Gotcha.

So I'll always have all of these rods lined up next to me, and I'm constantly changing. Gotcha.

So So, yeah. With the with the the swim, so

You're... When you're running that guide bait say over structure like you're talking about, are the fish seeing it you think before they've... Is that, like, so that swim pattern and the way that bait is moving is more of a visual queue versus like a lateral line

my...

That is my best guess. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That they're being, you know, they're they're being visually

turned on And Okay. I think competition has a lot to do Success if there's one loan or fish out there, you're probably not gonna get it to

to move, but if you're throwing it on a pile of thirty huge fish. And one of them looks sideways added then another one's like, hey. What the hell he doing? And and then And that's it. You know? And so

so looking for big numbers of big fish,

and, you know, given it as much opportunity to be in front of them and swimming just so or whatever it may be.

Gotcha.

Tends to get them to go,

So you... So in your experience in your feedback is you as you say, like,

the actual swim pattern is more of a visual cue versus a pressure wave or disturbance queue.

I

and I mean, no one knows, and we're not holding any right I don't know. I don't know. Because I've always assumed it's affecting their lateral line. I I don't know. Yeah.

I think that they're... Like, I look at a glide in the water. Yeah. And more than just my own, there's, you know, there's hundreds of absolutely. Glide. Yeah. And I I'll look at one, like, that one will get bit.

By the way I'm not doing that based on, like, my lateral line. Yeah. That's by the way it moves. I look at that, like, that's gotta smooth,

consistent, stable glide that one's gonna get chewed. Yeah. This one looks like shit. And so it can still be, like, turning on the fish vicious lateral liner or they could be feeling it, but they will reject those base.

Interesting. So... Yeah. So you said something and I I have it in my notes that I I... I'm... It always strikes me up too, because it it just in talking to you in that last point of, like, that I had always assumed that the way

that guys watch swim patterns of glide. Not necessarily as a visual cue, but as to how it tracks or sends off vibrations into the water, but you're saying Right it's way more of a visual one That I mean, that also makes sense.

In my opinion. Yeah. No.

And so that leads into, like, you said it right at the end there of one... Another thing flying anglers, I don't think

really think much about when they look at these glide is glide

literally track like, on a rope, man like, They should. Great. Right? They should. They don't always do that. That's kind of the pinnacle of glide.

Okay.

And glide. And and that is

bait makers that have achieved that, especially in current because it's extremely difficult to get a glide bait to perform well in current.

You can have a bait that works beautifully on the lake where the water still and it's not pulling or pushing it this way or that

versus

current, it's it's gotta be

so much more hydro dynamic and bow ballast just perfectly

so that even despite all of these

pushes and pulls of current. Yeah. Yeah. It's

it's still coming in like it's on a track, and that is, like, that is what I look for. That is that is what sets ab.

And see that's so interesting to me because and I mean you fly fish, you know this The first fly any stripe fishermen in California,

Northern California is gonna pull out of his fly box is a klaus, which Right. The last thing it does is track in a straight line. It's just dance. But I mean, I've seen people just hammering him with cloud. Absolutely. I mean, it's Yeah.

And it's... And it's funny because, like, no one no one that I know, like, I I do it, but I do it

very skeptical at times,

fish un weighted flies. Right? Like,

flies that track

straight.

You know, everybody thinks there's, you know, this fly needs to jig up and down. You know?

And,

you know, you can't argue with results, but I I do

feel

that towards the end of the summer, there is a period where, like, the fish were fishing for, kinda get hip to the up and down motion. You know what I mean? They kinda go know. They know that one stings. They're stupid and they see... And they see a lot of stuff. You know, they cold lures every day. Yeah.

And so that straight line fresh on that. That straight line fly starts to fish usually towards the end of the summer, but I don't... Right.

Well, that's that's really, like, when I would say,

end of summer,

in into fall through fall until water temperatures start to drop is really when a glide shines, and that's tracking

you're you're prospecting around structure. You're looking for... I mean, I don't know how much of this I wanna say, but, like, you know, new fish and big fish show up that time of year. Oh, yeah. For sure. Influx a big fish. Yeah.

And there... And and

I would imagine just about anything that moves

could probably

get a certain circumstances

get one to go, but

but there's something about just like a big stupid bait swimming right over them it looks, you know, like, none the wiser, and it's just cruising up for stroll. And. And they don't necessarily just attack them. They'll kind of slowly peel off of whatever their structure, they're holding on and they'll follow it for a bit, and, you know, sometimes you'll see these debates like, weight, you know, waking behind the bait or I can look at my graph and be like, oh, I've got one on me Yeah. Where I've got... Before I've got a bite. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, how often have we seen one of these big fish just come up right to the side of the boat before a decide before it's like choosing? I'm gonna know, ocean okay. There's a boat here. Totally. I'm gonna bite it right now. Yeah.

So do you think... And I I think this is...

Do you think

that that straight

line retrieval

is like a key component of the the reason they move. I think it looks like a fish. Yeah. I think... Okay. I don't... I mean, unless you're going for an injured bait fish, which you can still achieve with the straight straight retrieve. You know, then you're working with your stops and your Yeah. You know, stops and start crank crank pause and, yeah. You're... And

I mean, with the fly, it's kind of dictated by the line or the weight of. Right? It's gonna sync. It's not really going to just sit there and suspend. Yeah.

But I can do that conventionally. And and so, like,

I guess,

that... I mean, that's what I'm looking for. Yeah. I I don't really

I when a gl isn't

isn't maintaining that straight trajectory when it's going up and down, its action is going to blow out. Right? It's gonna start doing things like

like,

three sixty aerials, and it's just going to not look like a fish at all. And and so like, so that stability and that straight retrieve is a is a part of just the way that bait is fish successfully. And if it if it didn't have that

then the action would just... It would be moot and it would look stupid and you're not full in anything. Yeah. And I I think it's one thing that I... If you don't pay attention to, like, the the the big bait world of the gear world like,

I don't think you notice as a fly fisherman, but, like, I've noticed I'm like, that... They're not doing what I'm doing and what they're doing really works in that swim pattern. Right? Like, yeah. In that straight line pattern.

And

It's just... I don't I have... I do it. I don't do it enough though. And that's something that I think important for flying anglers english to note of, like, hey, like,

most of our stuff doesn't do that and doing that

from the

basically examples from your... The the gear world and your experience. That's that's key that works, You know? A good a good, like, counter points, I can think of

is a jerk bait. Yeah. In the conventional in the bass fishing world. A jerk date is extremely erratic. Right? It's locked down. At sideways. It's backwards. It's doing all kinds of cookie shit. And they absolutely love it.

And I've done well on those, Like, you know, when the... When my boys were younger, we fished a ton of joke dates on the river. Totally. They crushed. Yeah. They illicit a strike. Right? That's, like that dying bait fish. Yep. Weak, you know, opportunity for a predator that just gets triggered. And Yeah.

And I don't think that that's what a glide is achieving. I think a gl is elicit a strike on, like, an unsuspecting or

a fish that's just kinda slipping. Gotcha makes sense. You know? Yeah Just... Yeah. Swimming over kinda stupidly, and it's a big meal. Yeah. And they're very into, like, efficiency. Right? So those

are... They want one big meal. One big meal a day is great versus chasing little things around all the time. It becomes

a way to

differentiate what type of strike you're elicit.

So... Yeah. No. And that that makes sense. And it's it's it's funny you say that because I fish jerk baits on the the river with the boys when they're were younger girl all the time. And I mean, they would get

they would get the perfect fish for a five or seven year old. Right? But they would never move

a big fish on a jerk base. It's very rare. I have I, you know, it does happen. I've had a few... Usually, my gear is so light, and my setup is so light that when you do get those interactions, you're you're bone. Right? Do that fish. Yeah. You're cool.

They'll spool you. It's just done.

But it's so rare and so few and far between, you know, you've caught you've caught three hundred fish before that big one cup. Absolutely. You know, you're throughout alive, and

and you're gonna catch three fish in a week and they're all huge. Exactly.

Yeah. So you said something too that I've I've always found kinda interesting and that I'd I'd be really curious your thoughts on it is like,

So

you talk about pulling a fish of the bait, the bait following it or the fish following on the bait, how

how important do you feel that, like,

the color

in how that bait, like, visually looks.

Because

when I when I talk to glide bait guys,

it's like bone white. Right? Like, everybody's fishing some

You know, that was that was. It was bone white forever. And I'm like, there is not one fish in this river unless it's a freaking a bin that is bone well. You know? The bell of all of them are. Right. There's that. And I always think about that. Like, I... There's a time period where it's like, it all of white, all of over yellow. It's a real, like, for us, like a real

match the hatch type of approach, debate designs. These fish are coming and eating from below. Right? Yeah. Their eyes are on the tops of their heads. Yeah. Majority, they're looking up and seeing stuff. So

bone and white and light color patterns are really always a safe choice. Gotcha.

But I do... I'm... I base that decision a lot on

water

clarity. Yes. Yes.

And so when I tend to... And I don't...

I I tend to

use more realistic looking color ways just about all the time until the water starts getting really dirty. Gotcha.

And then I'll just go to something bright because it helps me see the bait and how the bait performing and in my head, it helps the fish see the bait and how the bait performing or or, you know, that

they... If they can't see it, then

What's the point? Right? They got Exactly able to figure it out. So I... I'm always... I I... I... So you that to back up, like, so you feel that when that fish gets

visual contact with that bait. It's important it looks somewhat

natural. Certainly. Yeah. Okay.

Not always. Right? Like, Yeah. Like,

I mean, obviously, sometimes a fish comes in Smart and stupid. Yeah. And so like, Yeah.

You can get them fired up if if you have the pulling power with your bait just on the glide

or just it kinda cranking back and forth or whatever it is that they see it and they start to key in and they're creeping up behind your bait. Like, your job at that point,

you know, whether they get whether they're gonna get close enough and inspect the bait and say this doesn't look right or they're going to come up and eat it. That could be entirely based on your color weight. Gotcha. What you should, you know? Yeah.

I don't know, but I that that is something that I'm thinking about. When the water's gin clear, and these fish have an opportunity to really check my stuff out and not being hyper aggressive, then that could be the difference. Gotcha.

If the water's a little muddy and they're aggressive and we're on like, a cooling trend and they're just going to chomp. Yeah. Then I'm gonna throw something really bright and just show it to as many fish as I can and wait for that one that's just super keyed up and and just grabs it without

bat and I last. You know it's... Yeah. I'm I am eating that.

That makes sense. And and part of it is comparing, like, thought processes from, you know, two different worlds of fishing that barely get together and talk thought processes, But that is... That's kinda of what I've always arrived at as well.

And that's right.

It's interesting.

It makes sense.

I always...

You know,

as Fishermen, nothing we say or say with confidence

can truly be proven. Right? Oh, no.

We don't know.

That's. This is what keeps me going, and this is totally kind of my thought process on when I choose what I'm using. Yeah.

Right now, this time of year, I'm definitely using realistic

stuff. It's the water water. I mean, they have been playing with the flows a little bit and so the water does dirty up a tiny bit. Yeah. But nowhere near where I would consider it appropriate to be throwing a white or a sharp truth or a bone or anything that I need to like, really help them out visually. Yeah. Like, it is it is absolutely realistic color time for me. Yeah. That's interesting.

Now do you play with any of the darker

olives and yellow and stuff like that of the, like...

Or you... Not intentionally. I do. Are you traditional white bottom guy.

White too,

what's good. What's it called. We call it pearl white Oh, yeah. The brush color. Yeah.

So it's got some pho four lessons or some sort of a

shimmer to it, but. It's an off white. It's a light color. Yeah. That's pretty much what all my bell are going to be. Unless I'm doing some sort of, you know, goofy one off. Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah. And, like,

the

the

realistic

way

I paint bait and like, I'm not... Like, I'm not...

I'm not a professional, and I do different things based on just how I feel wow. I'm painting bait Yeah. Come out darker. Some have more gold shimmer, some of them are lighter or more yellowish. Yeah. I don't think that matters so much as to just get it, like, pretty close to right. Yeah. And you're probably okay. Yeah

So I don't spend a ton of time in the weeds, like, making sure everything is perfect and have my, like, oh, I need three drops of this over the Yeah. Toro fin, whatever, like I don't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm just curious because it it is

you know, color as you come from the fly fishing world as well. Like.

We

fly guys obsessed over color. You know what I mean? Like? Holy.

And it doesn't seem to be as obsessed over

in the glide world as it is in the fly world. Right? Another

another

thing that I approach or certain time of year is when Sam and sm get put in the water. Right? Like, if you have a color way that's going to look like what is pretty... I mean, I... I hate to say natural forage. Right?

It's

it's what they're eating. Right? Yeah for sure that stuff. Yeah. And if you can get pretty close to that color way whether it be, you know, usually that time of year using soft plastics. Yeah.

And so I look for something that I feel resembles that. And Yeah. I believe that that gives me more opportunity for success and and produces more bites. Absolutely. Yeah.

So the the

and that all makes sense. And it... It's it's funny. I just don't think

Playa think that much about it. But,

you know, one thing that I... The the kind of the last thing that I I was thinking about that I had on my list was, you know, traditionally, if a flying alert sees a a glide bait guy,

you know, roll up to the boat ramp. They're gonna look at the glide bait and be like, dude, I... That's the size of fish I catch. Yeah. What the hell is that? Yeah.

And, you know, there's... I spend a lot of time, like, looking at the bait in the river and trying to kinda match, like,

what's the... You know, I me and Ben, and we always talk about, like, well, what's the size of bait this summer? You know what I mean? Like? What's... Yes. What's the year class look like here.

Following the Coleman Hatch, Like, we released total. Point five million

four inch Yeah. Never. And you're like, okay. Perfect. Like, Yeah. I'm... I mean, I'm the guy that's, like, measuring his trousers dude. I'm like, whoa. We wanna take a little bit. Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. And or you know, like, eating lunch and watching Pike Min swim around like, looking at my flies and being like, well, a little shorter, you know, like, Yes.

How how it is size a thing or is it, like, dude I'm throwing the biggest god looking thing to get him to eat?

I feel that the sweet spot for these big stripe

is somewhere in, like, the ten to eleven inch range. Got It's not necessarily

because

that's what the fish prefer. Like, you can still catch,

an eighteen inch stripe

on one of these huge baits. I, absolutely. I've caught fish that, you know, the bait was bigger than the fish. Right. And then you're just keying that strike or or triggering that strike.

But

a big reason I like that size is because

it's not too big for you to be able physically to throw that lure all day because it is it is very physically demanding. Absolutely.

You know, if you do that for twelve hours, your body just, you know, you hurts in ways that you really don't, you know, like oh my god. I... I wouldn't recommend doing that for twelve hours to anyone. Yeah. It's... Yes. So So around, you know, you get past, like, twelve inches or so and those bait start getting really big and you're and your taking and all kinds of anti inflammatory at the end of the day just to be able to... Just to go fast. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

So...

But I think anywhere from, like, seven to eleven inches is really going to get a big fish.

You know, get it is enough... It is big enough for these, the larger fish to say that is a worthwhile meal. Yeah.

And I'm going to take the time to try and eat that versus like, oh, that's just a little too small.

But then, again, when the water gets cold, I downsize significantly, I usually use, like, a four point eight inch kai tech. Wow.

On an a rig, and you know, I got that fifty four last year was on a was on a kite. A four point eight inch bait. And that fish was absolutely massive. Oh, yeah. That's the biggest stripe I've ever seen any human being. I mean,

legitimately hold. But someone caught a sixty pounder this spring out of the delta, which is just outrageous. That's insane. I mean, I've seen him swim, Like, I mean, I think we've all seen fish that we're, like, I... You you could tell me that fish is seventy pounds, and I believe you, But, like,

that one you have where you're laying you're holding it and it's tail down. I'm, like, that is Yeah. That is a large animal. Picture really showcased. Yeah. I know, because sometimes in a photo, you're like, oh, that really didn't do it. Totally.

That picture really did quantify this. Like, you could tell me that fish was seventy pounds, and I'd be like, boom, Yeah. Looks like it.

That was a well built fish and an off time a year. Right? I caught that thing in August,

which

is right around when those fresh, big fish are to show up, but still what I would consider pretty early. You know? Yeah. I don't think of August is carson out there roping fish. No Know?? It was... And... I mean, it it it was it was perfect. Honestly, Like, we fished hard that day. And I was wish with the owner of Bait sanity.

And, you know, so perfect. Yeah. Homage to them. Yeah. And, like, all of the support they've given me

and all the lures and rods and all this stuff that they've, you know, thrown to me just because they like what I'm doing and to have them out there

with all the camera set, And, And I haven't even really put a cool video of that fish online. Again, because I just kinda am low key about it. No. That that that fish is

insane, and I I I'd have that whole thing cast to catch. Like, I have, like, and literally be talking about it. I'm looking at the graph and I'm like, oh,

I think there's some big ones lying down on the bottom right here, and I'm throwing a glide base This is perfect for our conversation. Yeah. I'm fishing a glide, and I'm like,

I'm gonna switch to an a rig and try and dr the bottom and put it in front of this fish vicious face, and I make a cast, and I start just slow roll in this a rig and immediately

get that fish.

Whereas if, you know, and it was, like, twenty four feet deep there, and I'm running a glide over the top. There's no way. It was. I would have zero confidence. Yeah. Right. So... So, you know, again, multiple rods ready for the circumstances in front of me. And so I switch to the a rig and I caught the official lifetime. Yeah.

And you know, it's funny about that is even when you you think about the A rig, like, I mean, the the a rig still tracks in a straight line for the most part.

You know, it does. You know? It's it's there's...

You know, I mean, the... An A rig is a whole another

conversation, but it's more capable of dictating depth. Right? You can Yeah. You can slow your retrieve, and it's gonna get down far. They're Yeah. You can speed up your retrieve and keep it kind of just subsurface like the glide are running. So that's where you have an opportunity to kind of fine tune

what it is you're doing is basically retrieve speed. Yeah. And current, your retrieve speed and your ability to, like, dictate that retrieves speed is based on how you cast too. Because if you're casting straight, like, Yeah. Ninety perpendicular

to the boat, then the current gonna grab that bait and hold it up high in the water column versus if you're casting up river and letting it sink down to the fish and and drop... You know? Like, there's all kinds of little.

There's so much to it that... Oh, there is. And it's... What's interesting about it is it's... It... I guess having you on the podcast is selfish too because I just I I know your mind operates

very similar to mine,

but with a very different toolbox.

And, you know, here and how

I just learned so much listening to you talk just

you know, you think there's an arrogance that I think most fishermen have at some point that they think they understand why other people do things the way they do. But Sure. Very rarely until you actually have that conversation. It's

it's

it's not always correct, and it's fun to hear.

There's so much to it. No matter if you're throwing a fly rod or a gear rod. You know what I mean? It is...

There's so much to it.

Yeah. And, I mean,

all those little things that start to kind of

happen

without you

thinking about doing it. Right? These things are happening passively in just the style, you're fishing or the way you're fishing your bait Yes.

Is based on years and years and years of feedback. Right? Based on... And it's not even, it's not a calculated thing that people do, it's something that your body. I mean, for me at least, my body just kind of

this feels right. Yeah. And that... And so it's hard to quantify. You know? Like, well, I'm doing this and this and this seems to be working? I'll I'll fish with other anglers all the time and they're, like, what the hell?

Why do you keep catching these fish? Like, I don't really know, like I feel like we're essentially doing the same thing. Totally.

But there there are differences and there are nuances that really, really matter, and I think ultimately time on the water,

time in each specific location in our.

Or. Right? Yeah. This spot fish is best this way.

Whether that's a fly, whether that fly is kind of bobbing up and down, like, an injured bait fish or is just cruising steadily on top or above the fish that are held up on some sure right? You need to know each of these spots and how those fish are likely to behave and how you can optimize your presentation. Yeah.

And that's having All the tools at your disposal. You know what I mean? Right. So

Well, I always keep a fly rod rigged up. Like, I always have one on my boat.

And the... I've only busted it out one time when there was just a blitz happening right in front of me randomly,

and just cracked a few keeper size fish, but it's always there and it's always in the back of my mind, but I can never, like, bring myself to...

Oh, I would I would never tell any. You know, I always tell people like,

you know,

people ask about big fish. Right? Like, I mean the river is a big fishing. That's what that's Right what people think of. You know And I I always tell people. I'm, like, looked, did

two things

are at the end of a battle with a big stripe

and a fly rod. It's either the worst case of fucking tend nit you've ever had. Because. This rod is not designed to fight that fish or it is an absolute night

heartbreaking

Heartbreak

result. Like, that's... That. I mean, that heartbreak is the fuel. Right? Though Totally. We've we've all totally experienced it. Right? And it is what it keeps you up at night sometime. Oh, absolutely.

What the fly rod is not an not an ideal tool for chasing the big fish. And

it's gotta be something, like, like you're... Like, I

you've you've caught so many. Right? Yeah. Done. It doesn't matter. I'm Like, I mean, I've I've heard the story of this guy on the Trinity River. Right? That's always swinging and flies for steel head. And eventually he just, like, cut the hook off of the shank of his flight.

And he just likes to know that he can get them to bite. Yeah. Right? Totally. You gotta be at that point where... Yeah. I don't really care.

I just wanna see if I can do it this way. And yeah still going... And you're gonna fail so much. Yeah. I really feel confident that I could pull off some big fish with the fly rod, but I'm probably fooling myself. Because I've never been brave enough to to, like, take a day and actively target them on the fly. I think I I think honestly, because I I I mean, I I don't I don't wanna... Just... I, like, I know where you fish. You know where I fish, Like, we're all fit... You and me fish a lot of the same stuff and, like, Mh.

There's...

You're not...

The best flying anglers is not landing the fish you get in the area you get them. You know Like like I've been out... My buddy Christian is a very competent flight Yeah. I've been out with Nick a few times. So, you know, did the barb thing, and he is he is just incredible with fly rod. They'd me realize I don't know what the hell doing.

So So I'm not at that level, and his level of success is still

exponentially less in mine. Right? Like Oh, absolutely. Very gifted flying Anglers. I'm sure you are too. I've never shared a boat with you and gotten to see it personally, but I'm sure you are. There's limitations of the tool to turn the fish. Right. That's that's... I mean, that's the the the the bottom line is,

I mean, I... I mean, I fish tens and eleven weights over...

I mean, I'm seeing the same fish on the screen, and Mh. I know if I pull that fish, like, there's no way. Like, yeah. He's losing I losing a fly line. I'm losing a fly, like, it's cooked.

Last time I went fly fishing with my buddy Christian or he's fly fishing, and I was throwing conventional. Yeah. And we're up above Chico,

what's that stretcher of river.

Crane holes Oh, yeah call it. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. And and he's...

It's not a klaus, but it's kind of a big streamers what he's throwing. Yeah. A lot of flash and same thing it's doing that up and down kind of Yep. Action, and

he hooks probably a nine pound stripe, which is with perfect size for a fly rod. I will. And he goes He goes holy shit, I will never be able to land a big fish as this thing's just doubled over and is screaming outline. You know, and I'm just looking like what are you talking about? Like, you tightened down your dragon and just haul that thing in.

But that's that's the difference In Yes, probably what makes that pursuit that much more exciting for a flying angle.

And

although, it is exciting enough for me at this point just with conventional.

It would it would truly be the pinnacle, like, to catch a fifty counter on a fly rod.

It is that's kind of endgame, like, final boss. Yeah. You know? Totally that's it.

I mean, I've I've had clients

hook fish in that,

you know, upper forties, and we've landed them in the upper forties, but

it ninety nine point nine percent in the time. It's where you hook them.

And what's around you. Right? Like Right.

Seventy to eighty percent of the time,

if not ninety percent of the time you hook those fish, and you don't even see it because it's wrapped your fly ryan lying around a snag and rebar or whatever before you even know what up going on. Right? You know what I mean, because you can't you can't stop it with the fly right now. You know, you can't do whatever it wants, and you can just pull on it a little bit. Yes. It finally gives up. Yeah. Yeah.

So I had one this this last bill Paul or last winter, actually, it was kind of the dead of winter just before the river blew out, and it took me into a tree right away. It was a big fish. Yeah. And

took me into a branch. And I'm watching my line kinda screaming down river as this fish just kinda swimming at me. Yeah. And all of a sudden, my line stops. I'm like, that's not good. You know, I'll have a feeling I'm in a branch right now. Yeah And, you know, the line starts getting that choppy, like, it's slight

feeling. Yeah. Fish And

fortunately,

it took me about an hour, but I'm just sitting there kind of moving my line this way and going back and forth with the boat and going up river and Down river in Yank and doing all this stuff.

I was able to salvage that fish. It had gone like, down four or five times around this tree and I'm just doing all kinds of cookie stuff, but I didn't wanna give up. Yeah. And

I... You just wouldn't... I don't think you'd be able to do that. No way.

No way.

So... Yeah. So... Yeah. Well, difference. I can talk to you for hours as I'm sure we can. But as we sniff the hour, I I I do appreciate you coming on and sharing all the tips. And I I think I think there's a ton that...

To be learned from, you know, the gear side of everything is I've always preached to people. So it's it's good to it very entertaining to listen to you talk about your thought process and,

you know, confirm some things I thought that I knew and then disprove things that I thought that I knew at the same time and just gives credence to the beauty of sharing knowledge with people. So... Yeah. Everybody's experience is unique and Yeah. Is going to shape, you know, how and what they do. Yeah.

And there's... And there's no wrong answer. So speak, mean they're kinda is. But, you know, Yeah. Absolutely.

But, yeah, My pleasure, man. Thanks for... Yeah. And and, hopefully, everybody, you know, follow a follow carson on social media if you can find him and

it be amazed and drool over all the massive fish that this guy catches and

just assume... I might put some stuff out there. Know, There's been... There's a lot kinda in the stockpile that I'm like, maybe I should.

But but I know, you know, I'm just not interested. I don't care. No. Well, I mean, if you gotta sell some bait they're a post up. But if Right. If you just go fish and I'd probably leave them off. Yeah. You get pretty low key. Maybe just the stories. There you go. They want. They don't get to live it. They got they got twenty four hours. Yeah. That's it. So.

Alright, man. Well, thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. Yes.

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