The Professor of the Poopah… a Conversation With THE Tim Fox

Hot podcasting from Chico California.

This is the Bart fly fishing podcast

where we discuss North health fly Fishing, guiding fisheries signs and management,

conservation and more.

No better, fish better.

Here's your host, Hogan Brown. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Barb podcast. This is your host to and Brown, and I am

really excited to have a good friend of mine on.

Today. He is

known

worldwide for many reasons, some good, some poor, some bad. You know,

but

but,

I've been meaning to get this

gentleman on the podcast for many years and finally tracked him down. So let's welcome Tim Fox to the barb podcast. Tim welcome.

Hi, Hogan. How are you? Hell, very good, mister Fox.

So if you guys don't know Tim, I'm gonna let Tim give you the elevator

story of who Tim Fox is. So

Tim, let everyone know who you are.

Okay. Well,

I grew about in the country.

And I started flight tying in fishing was eleven,

and

I tied commercially for Towel shop in Chico, and then I worked for them.

In the

mid to late eighties and early nineties,

then

worked at a chopped down in fair field, then got a job at the fly shop in redding.

And a whole time doing a little bit of guiding and teaching fly fishing on the side, but most of it was

retail managerial work, and

and I've been a full time guide for

eighteen years. So

wow. That's where I'm at. Yeah.

Ten years. Is that... Is that... Or are you decade to be in full time guide now?

Four fourteen? Nineteen. No. Two twelve. Sorry. Twelve years since well. Since two thousand fourteen. Yes. Wow. That man. Time goes by? Yeah. Yes it does.

So where do you let everyone know where do you mainly guide?

So I mainly guide on the sacramento river will be called the lower Sac below leg shafts and redding.

And then also on the Trinity,

do a little guiding on the the mcleod, and and then I also do a little bit s

down here

near Chico? Nice. Nice.

And so I was...

You know, ever... A lot of people know you from your fly tying.

Yeah. You and then

the other thing and we'll talk about a little later. You you you now own a company.

You are an owner. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Tell everybody what you what what your latest venture is.

So I I purchased the

J fair

eagle fly fishing, which is

his

flight tying company. I don't do the flies, the trolling flies or anything like that, so it's just all the materials. So

I bought that from West Coast Corporation who had bought it. When they took over

Sears Mountain in Chico and Lincoln and Gray and and Ron lewis had bought it from Jay and Glenn and and I had been working over there,

dying up all their stuff

for a few years, and,

you know, Jay meant a lot to me in the past, and

and

W c didn't

really see,

with their...

Oh, what would you call that? Overhead costs is a big big company.

They could really make small flight time company work. So,

I... Joy purchased it from them. That's awesome.

So

as we get back into the guiding, you've been how long would you say you have fished... I mean, I think I know the answer, but the lower Sacramento river for trout

for trout well?

Just fish not guided, but Yeah. Just

my my whole life. So we're looking at what, forty

thirty five forty years. Yeah fifty something years. Wow my. My dad was a wonderful man and took

my

brother, twin brother and I out him all the time. We couldn't get enough of it. So we started early.

Wow. So, you know, one thing that I'm always very interested on is I've... You know, I think

this the time that I've spent on the rivers a snapshot compared to that. Mean, I think I probably got, like, twenty,

maybe twenty five years.

But...

And I think about how much I've seen that river change just in the time.

Just in the time that I've been on it. And I and I really

I don't have a lot of firsthand experience with the trout fishing over the last, say, ten to fifteen years because I just don't do it anymore, But

how have you seen the trout fishing on the lower Sac change?

So...

And this is the reading area specifically.

But yeah.

You have your cycles of high and low populations, but I think the main thing is

Oh, they're diet, and

they're... The pressure fishing pressure has changed. So

the fact that fish is great year round, and

the weather's is great. So you can you can guide it year round and that's attracted

a lot of,

a lot of the guides and outliers.

And so see a lot more traffic out there, and I think that just changed the way that I am,

Just not not only where the fish hold, but the type of patterns as well.

So have you seen... You know, I remember one time and I I I'm not sure if it was...

I may have been Jay telling me one time or somebody that I'd

respect was talking about

the

kinda like the life cycle of a tail water, you know, how, like, you know, this the lower sac in the grand scheme of tail water fishes is a pretty young tail water.

And,

you know, that as the tail water

ages

that it turns into a much smaller fly beneficiary.

Yeah. Would... Not not this small. I'd say spa. I think fish is a better word.

Can you kinda elaborate on that? Are are you a believer in that? Are you is that? Yeah. I am.

And and that's where some of the new Euro stuff has come in. Yeah.

Why. I made fun of it when it first start as you might as well fish S flies. I just make stuff up, but I still met it. There there's a lot of benefits to it. I mean, Spa eddy.

So as long as... I just incorporate that into my tying, but I don't

I'm not doing any particular style. Just... I keep things simple. There. It is like Tying Chad flies. You just keep it simple and spa. Yeah. With an oversized bead and you're good to go.

Well, now have you seen the hatch change

over the years?

Yeah. Yeah. In fact, this year, I saw a change where well, the last few years, but this year,

specifically, but like, the cat

that the my p usually imitate would used to come off in

May June, and, July, and the this year really didn't start until late August.

Like it's,

you know,

and it was... Wasn't hatching until right it dark.

So I used to pride myself on floating till dark and swinging flies and drive flies and things like that and that hasn't happened a lot

the last few years. So that's kinda changed and, I don't know if it's

from the flood scouring

the river or or now we have a bunch of water, and a bunch of cold water, and it's delayed the hatch where we had a cool summer. I don't I don't know, but it it has changed

Yeah. I mean, I I I think I would imagine year to year. The hatch has changed, but, like, I think, you know, I talked to some of you guys about, like, you know, jay

Jade Lo, specifically, like, Yeah. The flies that I would bring up there to guide now

based on what I used to do, say ten years ago, fifteen years ago, it, like,

according to them, they wouldn't even catch fish. You know? And Yeah.

True.

Yeah

And,

I mean, the fact that you can't catch a a fish on the sack on an amber wing prince or, like a bird's nest just like kinda makes me cry, but

like... Yeah.

Is it is it the fish have just been pressured to the point where that's just, like, no way. They're jumping on that or have the hatch, like, changed to the point where it is like,

turned into this, like, mid small may fly

fisheries?

I I think both. Yeah. I think both. I'm just I'm still getting fish.

On, like on a birds nest. Yeah. But

but just not the quantity. I mean, that I could leave a bird's nest, to poop and a small micro may fly off the autumn

pitch three flies, and I wouldn't have to change all day.

And now it's like, why won't they touch the bridge nest. Why they the Coup. Yeah. They do. They on occasion they do it goes through cycles, but... Yeah. It's just... You're right. It's not the same.

And so do you think you think it's a little bit of both that the hatch have changed

and that they're also just getting wax at daily by many boats. Yes. With the same flies over and over again. Gotcha.

Gotcha.

And the and the fish, know, there they were stacked in there,

for what was that in twenty twenty.

Early

twenty twenties.

With the drought. That was the only cold water. And. They were stacked up in there, and then it seems like in March,

I I noticed that March of twenty four, they... A lot of the big fish disappeared.

And I don't know if that's because they got blown down

to the ocean, and now they're officially steel head and maybe they'll come back this year and next year. That's wish thinking. Yeah. Or maybe they were... They went up in the side trips to spa, and then it got trapped up there and died. I don't know

who knows? Yeah. There has been. I mean, just from talking to guys, like, the average size fish is not what it was, say, four, five years ago.

Correct, sir.

Is it... You know, because I've I've seen that happen with, like, the U or even the stripe populations down here. It's like, you know, there there's years where you're, like,

man we caught five fish, but they were all good sized fish, and then you're kinda like, well, where's all the little guys, You know? And then Yeah. You know, a few years

pass and it's like, you can't catch anything, but the little guys. And You. You're pissed because you can't catch a big fish. So

Like,

populations, I think definitely ebb and flow, but is that kinda what you think is happening or is... I do. Yeah. I I do. I think it'll come back. Yeah. One one way or another there's a lot of

larger fish starting to show up now not as many, but then there's a pot ton of little guys. So

I think I think it'll get better. Yeah. Well, there's nothing wrong returning home. Yeah. There's not a lot... There's nothing wrong with little fish. It's just that's that river. I mean, it was seemed like for a few years there, it was like a, you know, an eighteen twenty inch fish was, like, not even a fish you take a picture of. You know? Right.

Exactly.

So...

So when you talked about the scouring, I've heard that you know, talked about a lot by a lot of different guys.

What how has the... When you refer to scouring, I I know you're talking about some of the recent high water events. What what do you? What do you see with that?

Well,

there's a lot of... Because it's a tail water redding so close to the dam, you don't normally see a lot of high water, and so you have a lot of weed growth

and a lot of bug growth,

and

You know, I'm kinda one of those crazy guys that'll go out when the flows are at thirty five thousand.

And there was one time I was out there at thirty five thousand Cf

where I could hear the rocks rolling below the boat. Of moving along. Yeah. And

so that just rips out, you know, probably kills a lot of bugs

and

wipes out the weeds, and there's a lot of weeds coming back and their studs and

and all the bugs are in the weeds and all that. So that... That's coming back, but it did.

And I think it made for a little while anyway, a shortage of

of bug life, plus those was

before last year,

twenty twenty five, there was hardly any salmon in their spawning. So there wasn't the egg or the dead car or anything

for the fish to eat. So...

And you at you find... Do those dead car? I mean, is it kinda like you, you know, you read, like, the... I mean, I think I know the answer, but, like, first firsthand information pretty powerful. Like,

the dead car have to produce

insect life. Right? Like, Yes. Like, that is a key component of a strong bug population. Do you kinda,

relate those two? On the side. Yeah. Yeah. I do. And it's

It's also the fish the fish eat some of it, like they do in Alaska, but mainly for the little fish and for the for the bud life, I think those car are super important.

Gotcha.

What are you seeing

for Salmon to up in that zone

this year.

So they had, you know, the winter run fish, They come in the

system in the spring, but then they spawning in the fall. I mean, in in the summer. They call them winter run fish, but they spot in the summer. Anyway, that was a really good run. There's a lot of dead car.

Lot of salmon

out there. Yeah. And then so far, they...

I don't know if they jump the gun on the fall fish, but

I've seen a few this last week of starting to move into the into the and things like that. So I would imagine by

by the end of September first part of October, they should be

spawning.

That's good. That's good. Because I I mean, I see a ton of... I feel like there's a lot of Salmon moving through the river down here, definitely more than I've seen,

you know, the last couple years, but that doesn't always translate

to fish up in the upper stretches.

You know? Right.

Yep.

So what do you kind of are you... So, you know, the the El nino talk of

another big winter.

Yep.

And we talked about the scouring is that

what could another big winter do to the river up in that kind of the trout zones.

Well, more of the same I would think fish should be used to it by now. But.

Yeah.

They they did a good job. I think the scare of the El nino, the whoever's in charge was that bureau of reclamation or something,

D.

Yeah.

I think both Or and s that they dumped.

Like, the shaft is eighty feet to the top right now. Yeah.

And dropping. So...

Yeah. They've got room... They've got room as long as are smart, but, you know, when has the government ever been smart about anything.

So yeah. True.

So that the hope is we don't get that big scouring flow like we had if you back. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, man. Manage it properly and hold back flows and until they have to, then I think we should be okay. But you never know. Yeah. Yeah.

So I'll be buying a lot of materials if it's flooding. Yeah. Right.

So you talked to... You talked about fly tying, and,

you are

I don't know. Probably one of the most famous fly tires to come out of the state of California.

So

what...

How have you seen fly tying change with the introduction of, like, euro style flies? And do you think it's a good change?

I think it's a good change.

Every everything's a fad. But,

as long as you

incorporate everything together. You'll know you learn learn to do everything, fish drive flies N,

streamers,

fish upstream downstream

and don't look down on on your fellow guy that likes to year and then versus Yeah.

You know, indicator versus dry drop

and high stick. But

But, you know, I I tried to take some of that stuff

from the euro... The euro style and incorporated it into just regular mid thing,

and that's been pretty successful for me. But as far as

changing everything.

I think social media,

all the tying videos and all the the fly, so many fly tires out there that have that platform that, like, you and I never had and Mike Last never had. Yeah. Just, like,

instant famous and a lot... There's a lot of talented flight tires out there. There is No.

Yeah. Yeah. Lot lot of them are doing the euro stuff, and but just regular n and

incorporating all the

cross cross incorporating a lot of the euro

materials in the regular n. It's pretty cool.

Yeah.

I... I've definitely come around to it. Like, I know

Matt Cali

was

the guy in my life that, like, was the big euro guy, and I just always gave a massive amount of crap that a fly of thread. A bit. Well.

Yeah. It's fun it's fun to make fun of that. Yeah. I'm, like, due to fly of

consisting of thread and resin is not a fly. And Yeah. You know, I just gave mass amounts of crap forever. And

I I have come around a very similar kind of, I guess, way of you're talking about it, because you you said it very eloquently better than I could of, like, you know, you take

the best of both worlds and you combine them and you get some pretty cool stuff. Like... Yeah. You know, I mean, just simple things like the

Cock leon owned tails. Like, it's, like, those things don't break, like pheasant and tales too.

Exactly. I mean, yeah. Wood duck doesn't yeah. Expand the stuff in.

Yeah. It's like, okay. Like, kinda got a... Yeah. Alright. I guess I'm using that now. You know? Yeah. Exactly.

So, like,

There is a lot improvement... Huge improvement. And a, a lot to be learned from all the different styles and stuff. Have you gone

to tying, like, your patterns and a lot of your... As we would say,

traditional patterns on, like, the jig and the euro style hooks.

Not really.

Like the the pup

it's

upside down if you tied it on a jig hook. Yeah.

Yeah. There are patterns like virgin nest and things like that doesn't matter if it's

up upright or down right. It doesn't doesn't matter. Looks looks the same. So Yeah. I try to try to do that When I tie on Jig hooks, I try to

tie flies that the just symmetrical, so you don't have the top and the bottom are different...

Unless you put some flash or something. Yeah. You know, as it's

moving in the current and it it turns a little bit and the fish sheet that flash. So

Yeah. But

yeah.

Do you find yourself...

If you're gonna sit down and start working on a new fly pattern or tweak something you got an Idea. Are you reaching for a jig hook or a straight chain hook?

It depends on what I wanna do. Mostly, lately. I've been doing Jig hooks. Really. It's slot tungsten and beads. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're... I'm guiding now and, they're quick and easy. I can wipe out twelve

after I've been guiding for twelve hours in a day and wipe

knock out a dozen

simple jig,

it takes longer to put the resin on them than it does

to actually tie them.

And

secure them, and then

I can have them for the next day. So...

Yeah. It's a good point. I... I I mean, I don't guide a ton of route or as least as much as I used to, so I don't have to just sweat shop flies, but, like, that's it's pretty obvious that that's a lot quicker end of the day, tying or early morning tying session. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. So that's... That's what I'll I'll go for, but I still love the standard

standard N and drive line hooks and all that, trying to find different brands and in different models that don't bend out and Yeah. I know what happened happened to med lately, but it seems like a lot of hooks bend out.

They too, man. That is a... There's nothing worse than I I...

I'm, you know, all order hooks that I'm like, oh, that looks cool, and then did I put it in the vice and I got a box of fifty of them like, oh, man. That's not gonna Yeah.

You know.

That's I I actually got on a rock

hold and

my hooks are useless.

Yeah. And I... It's funny you say that because it's... I don't know

how you can tell that without actually

physically putting the hook in a ice or not, but it I got a lot of boxes of hooks that will never see the daylight, You know? Yeah.

So...

Now do you... When you are tying

on your Jig hooks. Are you... Do you believe that it's a... Do you do you does fish stick on the Jig hooks better? Are you a believe them? In that? Or...

No. I, I believe that

it sinks faster. I always put my jigs on the bottom of the... Out of the three Yeah. Two or three that I use. Yeah. And that's pulling the other flies down. Number one. Yeah. And number two, it's riding hook up on the bottom, So I get stuck on the bottom less.

Gotcha.

So That makes sense.

But as far as, hooking and landing fish, the landing ratio,

I haven't noticed the difference in landing ratio.

Between the jig and the rig... And a regular N hook.

Gotcha. So... Based on my experience, nothing scientific. Just... Oh, yeah. Well, you got a lot of experience. So if the the client does a regular hooks set, done bites the fish properly, he'll let he'll land the fish. Gotcha.

Because you do hear people swear that Jig hooks

stay button better than say, like, a normal N hook. You know what Mean mean? But I I can't I can't find that in my own limited trout fishing. So... Yeah. I I haven't seen that.

I haven't... They do... They hold well. They hold good. Yeah. I think the same as any other N info. Gotcha.

Now are you switching out weights on those things? Like, are you, you know, Are you going big tungsten beads on some of them, little tungsten beads on others or are you kinda just... Do you? Okay. Yeah. I'm... I have been leaning lately towards an oversized tungsten bead on a tiny you don't time? Little thread body with just a big bead.

You know when I was a kid,

used to fish with mint with a split shot in in areas, some areas,

I could see the fish, my, any

press, especially in the swirly holes, you know? Yeah stuff squirrel around. Throw it in there and they're peck at the split shot, which was really shiny silver.

Okay? Yeah. What the hell? So

now I've been tying a lot of, euro N,

and I call I call them a lot of silver bead euro trash or copper b euro trash. I just...

Yeah, I've everybody's using whatever the wi N for whatever it is. From full pulling milled, it's just a silver bead with some thread mer cocktail leon tail. Yeah. And so I tie something similar to that, but with my own flare. Yeah. And it works. And then what are you using just silver bead? If I don't need to call it a white or hot spot. It's just it's silver bead euro

trash. Yeah. As as hard as I have worked to to develop flies, and I'm sure you have two, the fact that something that simple is that effective is, like, man, what am I doing?

You. But it is the definition of spa ness. It's about as spa as you can get. Yeah.

Yeah. It it it I I never wanted it to work, but it does. I have to.

You know what I I... I'm I'm the same with you. There... Yeah.

It was ridiculous at first, but there's something to it. No. There is. There is, and it pains me to think it, but there is. So

so on the topic of of fly

tying and such,

you own J fairs,

the material company and Yeah. Correct.

Like, talk about...

I mean, that is a big undertaking with a a long history

in a a... I mean, let's be real, a pretty high bar of

a standard that needs to be kept.

Right? Like,

how did you think that this was...

I I just... I'm... I've... As soon as I knew this, you told me this, I don't know a couple years ago I was like, wow, man. That's a that's a bold undertaking.

Right? Yeah. It was... Were you...

What made you think that that was gonna be a good idea,

or was it... Like, I just don't wanna see this go away because...

It it was both. Yeah I didn't wanna see it go away

I just... Had a great good times with jay in the past mission. Yeah. And, taught just talking about materials and things a long time ago. And

just a nice individual, but but also,

you know, somebody

just

really figured out Eagle equal lake and all those lakes up in that area and the colors like, the burnt oranges and the cinnamon and everything.

Like staples. He was... Stay... They were... There stay... Staples now, but

back when he started dying those colors

there's nothing like it. Yeah. Way ahead of his time. Yes. But

anyway, it was important to me, number one,

number two, I thought it'd be fun. Everything in fly fishing is fun. Yeah. Right. Even though it's a business,

and I'm doing it in my garage, and I can I can make enough money?

You know, when when it's flooding when it's four fifty sixty thousand Cf come shaft the sedan. Yeah.

And so I'd keep keep the dream going and make a little money and have fun doing it and keep Jay's

legacy going, and I know to a lot of people

His colors

are super important and I remember a long time ago ordering his materials at pals and at the fly shop and Yeah.

And of this color is not the same as the last color Yes.

And

all these batches were different,

but that'll all worked. Yeah. But then if you...

If somebody...

I I want the burnt orange your burnt oranges incorrect.

It's like,

Yeah. Well, Jay's, we're never no two batches were the same. But, you know I try my best to keep it keep it close

close. Keep it close to what Jay died and and there'll be some variances, and there'll be people that

Don't like that. Oh That's the way it goes. Oh, no. I mean, I remember back in Nevada City Anglers

with, like, the late nineties, like when ordering that stuff.

And, no. There was visible differences.

But you're absolutely right. It all fished.

It was just,

you know, the the the burnt orange was a little more burnt or a little more orange from, you know, Exactly. Shipment to shipment and it

you just lived with it. And it it was funny. I remembered the Chen,

like,

you'd look at the cards, and it was really obvious that he was, like, dying this in

some basement or something because, like, the cards would have die residue on them. Yes. Exactly. You know what I mean? Or there'd be like, a a dye fingerprint on the back and yes.

He'd be like, dude. Come on, man. Like, I'm

I'm trying not to do that. I'm trying to let the Ocd flow through me. So that,

you know, those card... The yellow cards Yep. Are nice and perfect, but,

you know, it happens.

So so you take this over. Right? And, I mean, it is, like, here's the recipe book. Good luck or Mh. And you just had to figure this out.

Well, no. I been I had been dying it at T stream in the Mountain and Ron Lewis had

all the recipes and everything in a computer spreadsheet, and

but there always variances with water temperature and everything. So... Yeah. I'm... I've got it to where

Yeah. I made a few mistakes. Obviously, you know everything's a learning process, but I... I've got it pretty dialed right now. So

so you talk about water temperature, Like, how how yeah. How complicated is this process? Because I've never dyed materials. Like, I I I mean... Yeah. It it depends on the material. So, like, the synthetic, the the shock that I die. Yeah. And

then, like, the ultra Chen or Ver. Mh. Like, the p at the cinnamon for the Pup is

super difficult. I mean, you have to... You literally have to have the water temperature around a hundred thirty, hundred and fifty degrees right there. But then

you gotta stick that in there with the dye,

and you can't let it sit like some materials like feathers and hair and things like that. You can just stick in the pot overnight Mara, just throw them pot overnight and it's fine.

It's good for it. But, like, the synthetic,

you got a diet and then stand there while it's dying and pull it out every few seconds just like, like your

stirring pasta, you know, Yeah. Pull pull it up, look at it. And man,

as soon as it's close, you gotta pull it out. You gotta turn it off and go dump dump the die and rinse it because...

So it's a total visual

confirmation.

I think on the on the synthetic. Yes. Wow.

The feathers, you can pretty much trust, you can just leave it overnight or for... You just just let it sit there for days and Yeah. And it'll be true true to color what it's supposed to be. But and those synthetic, you gotta

gotta really really watch them.

That's funny. I mean, that's counterintuitive to what I would think. I would think dying feathers is way more of a delicate process. But

Yeah. I guess it makes sense to get the exact color you want. So you're literally...

The difference between, say batch a and batch b is just your I test.

Yes. Exactly.

That's nuts.

And yeah. And so you kinda have it down now, though, like, timing and all that type of stuff, But the bottom line is you're sitting there visually ex in expect or inspecting the color

each batch.

Yep. Wow. On on the synthetic. Yep. Wow.

Is that... I mean, is that because you're doing it

in, like, a a small operation? Or is that how all this? Okay. Okay. Well, they're there's, like, there's companies

I don't know if the hairline does, but like, sem fly out of England. They they have

big giant

machines that current pressure

that's all automated. Well, yeah. That's what I was thinking is. I'm, like, some of these companies are cranking, you know, whatever chen color out.

Yep. You know, like, it's freaking Mcdonald's. So... Yeah. It's not not just a dye formula, but it's, like a machine formula. You're put in the seconds and the temperature.

Like a... What do they call that.

It's like that. When they got it. You got it all computerized.

It's funny though, I mean, I'm sure

anyone listing that has tied flies has

even in the large

produced stuff. There's massive

variations in batches or colors. You know what I mean I noticed it with dub because,

you know, how often you go through a bag of dub. You know what I mean? And Exactly.

You go through a bag and then you order another bag and you're, like, that doesn't look like the last bag Probably same. Yeah. What termination is this. Yeah. So unacceptable.

Right.

So

with the synthetic, you're sitting there watching this stuff and you pull it out. And so

did you get, like,

I I I just... I'm fascinated by how you've been able to, like, replicate

what jay did? I mean, are you looking at, like, an a an original J fair? Yes. Piece of shape

older of older samples. Yep. And you're just eyeball in that? Yes.

That's so good. And that's how Jay there.

J Jay would say beautiful wonderful colors.

So you have, like, the vintage J fair produced.

Like that he made. And so everyone that has made it since then is just like, yep. That looks right I pull it. Yep. Close enough. Yep. Wow. That's nuts.

Now do you have any idea and I'm sure you probably do. How did he arrive at that color.

Oh, boy. I... You know, I never

never really had those discussions with them other than he was trying to imitate, like, the little horseshoe

trump or crab or whatever that up in Eagle Lake. Yeah. Trying to imitate that. And so... And it was successful. So I think he just did a trial and error to be honest.

That's insane.

Yeah. I mean... I I mean, I met him a few times, and I I have this picture of him just, you know, going back and forth. You know what I mean between?

Yep. Lake and, you know, probably his kitchen yep. For all that, you know,

Yeah. Wow.

So so you're producing the synthetic, all the Chen.

Yeah. I have the Mara, and the and there's the seal sub dug in? Yes.

And what else the mo hair. So that's, I think, five.

Gotcha eventually, as I'd like to look into during some other materials, but we'll see.

Because I have a few and that... I, like, treasure them with my life is, like, the old saddle or the old hack that he would do. Yes. The s ins. Do you have... Are you doing any lot? Yes. Are you doing any of the s ins?

No. No. I've gotta figure out a source for those. Gotcha.

I know towards the end of,

before I took it over Sierra stream mountain and was having a hard time getting those, they getting even off off of the R slack anymore. So... Yeah.

Well, I'll figure it out eventually here.

Well, his

And do have you... Has it been the same

Mara source

throughout? Yes. Because, I mean, the... He's always had and now you have two, like, the best mara.

Yep. Like longest fibers,

cleanest, like, top notch stuff.

Yep.

Interesting. Same source. Yep. That's nuts.

So

So the semi seal dub,

the the Mo hair Palmer stuff.

Yeah. And then the Chen

and then all the marrow is. Yep.

Wow.

And so

and you're just doing it in your garage?

Yes.

Oh, man.

Are you...

And

oh, man. So that straight mad scientist lab in the fox garage.

Yeah.

So

what... Because I mean, I I did today I'm, like, I wonder if you can buy this stuff on... Like, where is it sold now? I mean, we're... So

A Los Coast outfitters is the only

down in San Francisco, is the only shop that's been ordering it from me. And then I've been

selling it back to West Coast, as a distributor

and they're selling it to, like, Cab bella and Bass pro and then a few other fly shops. So... Got it. And I'm...

With my guides schedule. I've been trying to put it on my own website, I've got the shock on there. I need to put the Mara and the Mo here and within me deal on there, take individual pictures and that's probably gonna be a

project for this winter to get it all laid out on my website, so people can order direct. Gotcha. So people can buy it from you directly. Yes.

Yeah.

Wow. Now are you, like,

barely head above water trying to keep

prop everything died and... Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

Oh, yes. Because I'm booked solid guidance from my two weeks ago until mid November and books solid. So...

Now are you

are you employing family members and friends to start dying material? Or is... I have to imagine, like, you gotta know how to do it. It's not like...

Yeah.

Yeah. No. It's been doing it all myself. So

if I'm out of something, then I I try to

you know, both kids in school, and my wife wife works full time, So nobody really has time in my family to really help out. Yeah. Other than you know, I'll get my son. He's the he's the manager of packaging. He'll help me package.

So Yes. Yes. Just roll these un cards.

Yeah. But every time I get a big order, I just... I produce extra every time. I'll do a bigger bigger batch and produce extra, build up my back stock. Gotcha. No.

Wow.

I... It talk about a because, I mean, it's the it's the kinda deal where you don't wanna be the guy that ran j Fair flight tying material into the ground or screwed it up. You know what I mean? Like, that's the which

which is paid for, and all the materials are paid for. So that won't happen. It'll just be a worst case scenario Just have a reputation for not delivering. Like, when you when people want my flies.

And yeah. You. Yeah. You're wait two years for your supplies

it gets your mara next year. Yeah. You get your mara next year, but,

yeah, I think I'm I'm getting older, so at some point, some point. I don't have to do less guiding and more dying. Yeah. So Yeah. I mean did

did... Oh, that's another thing. I really did

buy it with an eye to

do it into my old age.

Yeah. And I mean, that's the... I guess, if you can kinda

if you can just keep your head above water while you're busy.

And then, you know, with the with the option of... You don't get too far out in front of your skis with growth, but when it's time to grow it, it'll be time to grow. Yep. You know? Yep. Exactly. Yeah.

Well said,

Yeah. I just... I was...

I it's just a... For me, I guess maybe I just... I think I hold j in the material and, like, the history of the material and a in a pretty

pretty high regard. Right? Like, it's a... I just think of it as, like, a pretty balls move to, like, be, like, okay. Like, now I am the the bearer of this, and I I wouldn't wanna be...

I wouldn't want that responsibility.

Yeah.

Not to like it with you. Not to get in your head brush Said now. No. I think it was a it's a natural progression for me. So... Yeah. I think that's where Was headed. Have had you created your own materials before this?

No.

Other than doing all my own dub blends? I I do.

Fiddle fart it around doing all my own

own dumping. So

that's that's more than Do. I mean, I when I say, I do my own dummy, it's like I buy a couple bags and, like, mix it together, but that's about the extent of it. That's. That's. You know,

go to the craft store buy a bunch of yarn and cut it into inch sections and run it through the blender and mix them and Yeah bought the butt. That's awesome.

Well, so what do you got going on the next the next couple months?

Hopefully, some guiding and then...

Yeah. Yeah, Guiding solid. So Got

doing an elk here soon on the coast of California.

That's right. We didn't even talk about that. You do a ton of hunting guiding as well. Right? Yeah. But but let's

man, my body's

you know, starting to feel more aches and pain. So,

like, normally, I do about forty days in the fall,

and this year's twenty. So and then next year probably even less. Gotcha. Kinda

as much as I enjoy. It gives me a really nice break from the fly fishing guiding. Yeah.

And it's just so much fun to get outdoors and hike around. You know, balance out my legs.

Yeah. With my rowing with my rowing shoulders. I don't I don't wanna have little two thick legs and be big broad across the shoulders. It looked like a cartoon character, But

But, yeah. So... Yeah, Hunting and fishing more fishing this year.

Yeah. That's cool.

So will you be on the Trinity once you get done with hunting season?

Yeah. So I've got, like, a week here and a week there,

and fishing sandwich in between

And, but most of my trips will be on the Trinity which will be nice. Yeah. Because

traditionally,

in October, there's fewer people on the Trinity There's been more and more. Yeah. But most guys are on the sack for the egg bite. Yeah. And so and then once everybody switched us over to the trinity in November, then I can start going back to Sack or do a mixture of both.

Gotcha.

How do you... How have you heard the Trinity shaping up for the coming fall and winter.

I've been over there

a bunch lately, and, just trying for early steel head, and Yeah. There's a ton of dance. Ton of Salmon. That's good. Yeah. They jacked jacked the flows up to, like, twelve hundred to cool the clam off and that brought in some fish.

But, you know, we'll see they're drop in the flow start tomorrow over there, and so that'll probably stabilize this steel had fishing. Gotcha. And

traditionally have started spawning over their

September

twenty third, twenty four twenty fifth right in there. So this week coming up. So they'll drop the flow. The Sam will start spawning and the steel had go

dessert.

Oh, yeah. Now have you seen any changes to the Salmon runs

over there with the the dam being removed on the clam, the dams.

I I wish I I haven't even been over there. Gotcha. I've I've heard all the same things everybody else has. And... Yeah. I'd like... I'd like to see him

love to see maybe some of the hatch trees produce extra, have some some salmon guide volunteers to go help produce extra and plant them in a bunch of creek and stuff. Yeah. But then we get into a huge argument with

with the bay area type people that

they they Hatch fisher interior and, you know, that they Yeah. To sue you from doing that. So they just wanna have crappy Salmon fishing for like, two thousand years. And we wanna come back naturally.

Oh oh, anyway, That's just my opinion.

You know? No. It's a it's a not bitter or anything.

Do you think more salmon are coming up the Trinity because of the climate? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I do.

Yeah. Do steel head end and and

Salmon both, I think.

Yeah. That's... So, I I think the clamp will

turnaround would be awesome but it's gonna take a few years. Yeah. And then, I mean, maybe in the the years in between the Trinity

amazing. Do you know what Mean? Yeah. I mean, that's not a bad thing.

So...

Well, cool, man. That sounds like it you got a pretty busy fall in

winter and I...

It's good to hear the the time. I I just been really curious to hear how that's going and such like that. And

so, again, where can people find the J fair materials at Lost Coast. And then... Yeah. Lost Coast outfitters,

and then on my website at mister Fox outfitters dot com. Yeah. And at your website, you'd... You also sell a ton of flies on your website if you're planning trips and three years out. Right. Yeah.

Exactly. No. You know, if you order them on my website, I I tie them of, you know, I'll stay till midnight time them. Because people prep, but it's like, oh, my guy buddies, you know, when they walk flies like, okay. I'll get to that. Yeah. And then then end up, I have to tie for myself. And so I always put my own flies ahead of everybody else's. And then next, you know, a year or two goes by.

So...

Yeah. Well, that's at least you're not the... I mean, I I... At least I'm not the only one because that's kinda how I operate as well. So... Yeah. Makes sure you feel better.

Well, hey, man. I really appreciate you coming on.

Give everybody your website again so they can go check out everything you got going on.

Alright. That's mister fox outfitters

dot com, and mister is m r. Gotcha. And everybody. That's all your socials on it and everything like that and your emails everything thing and... Yep. If you're looking... Social security and others maiden name.

Yep. The...

All their... Well, hey, man. I really appreciate you coming on. And taking the time. I know you're super busy this time of here year just to kinda bs us with me and get an episode done. So

everybody, let's thank Tim Fox in your own way. Go check out his website. Follow them on social media, order some flies, buy some fly tying material or book a trip.

Thanks, Timmy. Alright. Thank you, Holding. Alright.

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